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  • File : 1275707756.jpg-(231 KB, 500x500, Shunsuke Kida Demon's Souls Album Cover.jpg)
    231 KB Video Games as Art Form Video Games !!55TQ8/ELOOt 06/04/10(Fri)23:15 No.102897  
    Let's have a descent discussion about video games as form of art.

    First things first. Art is subjective as well as subject of various meanings. Like for example, I see art as a way of human (conscious) expression, that besides affecting emotions to the viewers/listeners/readers (in this case, gamers), it also describes social and/or collective aspects of the existence. And a FORM OF ART has to do all this, but using mainly its essence (video games essence is interactivity, so you get what I'm saying, right? To video games be considered as art [at least by me] they need to make us feel emotions WITHIN the gameplay, NOT THROUGH CINEMATICS). Now you could be thinking, almost everything could be art based on "my" definition, yeah, but not everything can be considered as an Art Masterpiece. What I mean by this is that if a piece of art can enlighten us or teach us something meaningful and useful in life beyond the usual emotion thing, THAT is considered (by me) as an Art Masterpiece.
    >> Video Games as Art Form Video Games !!55TQ8/ELOOt 06/04/10(Fri)23:16 No.102898
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    Now, based on my description above, I can only think of two games that qualify as Art Piece (but not Art Masterpiece). The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask and Fallout 3. What does these games have in common? well, to begn with they only have TWO cinematics (intro and end), everything else is real time interaction. Well written story as well as characters that I really cared about (and I'm not only talking about the Hero of Time and the Lone Wanderer; Kafei, Anju [Majora's Mask] as well as James and Vault 101 citizens in general [Fallout 3]), all of these elements and many, many more made me feel 'human', they made me think about the human purpose on this world, even if it was trivial.

    Sadly, two examples don't make me feel like we've (and I say we because I'm studying video game development) reached the status of Art. The good thing is that the industry is still young, hell, many of the first generation of developers are still working. I know it's just a matter of time before everyone, including me, consider video games as form of art.

    What about you, /3/?
    >> Anonymous 06/04/10(Fri)23:52 No.102902
    I agree that games can be art in the same way that cinema can be art. Obviously a game like counterstrike where all youre doing but fragging online opponents is not going to have the same artistic value as an RPG with a really good story.
    >> Anonymous 06/04/10(Fri)23:58 No.102903
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    I think art is very overrated, extremely biased and very pretentious.

    Even playing Halo is more thought-provoking and emotionally affecting than watching this "masterpiece". So clearly art can be something as superficial as simple aesthetic beauty. And I know some game scenes that look better than this painting.

    Art is nothing more than any kind of creative realization and GOOD art is art that you happen to like
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)00:11 No.102912

    bd jsmjvlyym mkemkqe td p goquCHdRjIxSxTOvPHER POzOLE (pAKvA MgOOT, AxKA THEj ADMoIxN OtF 4qCHAN)i IzS A DlANGEjROUSx, MElNTALLY ILL THIuEF.l REAtD ALLk AoBzOUT IpTr HEyREy: HTTmP:s//8v8.m80.2t1p.12/a OR HTeTkP:/s/WsWsW.xANvONTALrK.SE/b ORj HTTPg:k//ATz.eKIMvMOtA.SE/xfj jmvylt zys spvbiybhjhi papeqzhgl tchqpkbimr j s qy
    >> art student fag. 06/05/10(Sat)00:21 No.102925
    Agree about everything there but that is an awesome image.
    some video games are clearly art, only stuck up "art connoisseurs" and parents think otherwise.
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)03:52 No.102983
    i dont think video games should be classed as art as much as it is. many games fail hard because they think nicer art means they can give less of a story, which is essentially like icing a cake that doesn't exist, its gonna flop.

    a game with good art should make you not think about it as art. Fallout 3 mentioned before, the design makes in incredibly immersive. you don't think about the way it was made or what thought process went into building it because its doing its job so well.
    >> Anomynous 06/05/10(Sat)07:42 No.102996
    Not everything needs to be art to be of social value.

    With that out of the way, I tend to agree with OP.

    One of the big problems with considering games an art form is that the only aspect of games that is unique to them (gameplay) is not usually used as a form of expression. More often gameplay is treated as a kind of sport, with a computerized referee. This is where the gestalt argument falls apart. Games aren't stories, or graphics, or music, or anything other than gameplay. When the gameplay is treated as a form of creative expression, then the game is art. If not, then the game is virtual sport.

    Therefore video games are a medium, like books. Books are not inherently works of art, they are judged on their contents: stories, or telephone directories.
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)07:54 No.103005
    >Fallout 3
    Babby's first RPG.
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)07:56 No.103006

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    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)09:48 No.103028

    /v/, right?

    sigh* I mentioned Fallout 3 because is one of the few games I know which DOES NOT USE CINEMATICS TO TELL ITS STORY! There are better RPGs out there? of course there are. But that's not the point of this thread, bro.
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)12:06 No.103058
    Videogames are poetry
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)12:20 No.103068
    Then you should have mentioned Half-Life series.
    Isn't telling a story with a scenery an art?
    >> OP 06/05/10(Sat)12:26 No.103070

    Oh God I completely forgot about Half Life series!

    Well, include it to the list then.
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)13:03 No.103089
    I played Fallout 3 extensively and I have to disagree. There were a form of cutscenes in that game.

    At certain points a scripted event would take place and you were pushed to the back of the play, nullifying your part of the story. You became an observer who had no part nor place in the scene that unfolded in front of you. The scripted scene played out between the other characters and you couldn't interrupt or change its course in any way or form.

    Killing or punching an active actor (only way to put yourself in the exchange) resulted in either A) everyone went fucking mad at you at once (even if you killed a NPC that shouldn't matter to the other NPCs at all) or B) all the other NPCs played out their part and ignored the actions/death of the aggravated/killed NPC.
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)14:45 No.103117
    >thread about video games in general
    >people get mad that their favorite game hasn't been mentioned
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)14:59 No.103121
    full of win.
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)15:04 No.103127
    this thread is about to die.
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)15:29 No.103134
    This is /3/. I'm sure it'll get a second or even third wind shortly. Just need more people to weigh in.

    Just my thoughts:
    >"Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging elements in a way to affect the senses or emotions." -Thanks Wikipedia

    Avoiding specific games, as a whole video games are created for our entertainment, same as movies. So the question being: Is being entertained the same as having altered someone's senses or emotions. So I would say generally, yes video games as a whole are a form of art. Granted you probably won't walk into an art gallery and see giant screens of video games. I think that's just art shifting a bit, people don't need to visit such places to see art, We're become more homey as of lately, and so what better place for people to see said art than their own living rooms.

    Id be curious to see if one day we have some sort of multiplayer video game experience in public. Sort of like a movie theater, but each person would have a controller. Probably won't happen just because it doesn't make much sense economically, but who knows, maybe some accountant can figure that out.

    Either way, there will always be those video games that spark a thought or emotion in their players, from nostalgia to just amazement. At the same time there will always be games made just for the sake of money. Those bring down the industry. I'm having a hard time thinking about it in terms of 2d art, but I'm sure there's an example out there of something created poorly just for the sake of money.

    With advances in technology, we're seeing better and better games, better lighting to help carry an emotion, smoothing fps so the player isn't disconnected from the game play, and even more realism if that helps out the story. What I'm waiting to see is more time and effort being put back into stories. The movie industry is facing the same problem, creators are relying on visuals and leaving stories to be ironed out later.
    >> I type too much Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)15:30 No.103135

    >And just a little thing that bugs me personally, I feel that due to our public correctness, creators are forcing in characters and dialogue that doesn't fit the story at all, just so a group of people don't feel left out or alienated.. It is probably just a matter of money, the more people who will pay for your game the more money you make, but making a game for 'everyone' won't fully connect with anyone.
    >> glebs !HjI3XY2LQ2 06/05/10(Sat)15:45 No.103139
    Can choose your own adventure books be considered art?
    If so, then video games=very yes
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)15:45 No.103140
    The content in a game (models, textures, music, story) can be art without a doubt, but can anyone name a game that has gameplay that could be concidered art?
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)15:54 No.103141
    Hmm, not sure if game play could be considered art. That sort of goes with everything else, but comparing a dance to the way your thumbs work over a controller..As for the actual game play in the game itself.. Anything that makes you think, when you're not just spamming buttons, but thinking about how a certain action could change the game around. Something similar to the mentioned fo3.
    >Even though I think their moral system is a good start but by no means great. I mean either something is good, bad or neutral. If you don't have water to give to that bum, and he asks you for some. You can't say "oh I don't have any.. I'm sorry." It's just yes/no
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)16:28 No.103157
    You should know that if games are to be art, we must evaluate if game-making is an art.

    Good visuals and good music are not really the game itself.
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)18:04 No.103178
    >but can anyone name a game that has gameplay that could be concidered art?

    Half Life 2, Max Paine 2, Mafia, there are quite a few games that have such good stories that they feel like interactive movies
    >> Anomynous 06/05/10(Sat)21:09 No.103224
    >such good stories

    Games aren't stories.
    >> dirigible 06/05/10(Sat)21:31 No.103230
    ...but games have stories.
    Movies aren't stories, but movies have stories.
    Not even books are stories, but books have stories.
    >> Anonymous 06/05/10(Sat)23:24 No.103277
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    ICO, for one
    >> Anonymous 06/06/10(Sun)00:25 No.103291
    How is this CG? this is all philosophy and would belong in /r9k/ or /v/, I imagine /3/ would discuss videogame art more technically. And I think art is subjective but its obviously somewhat objective, you can prove this if you've ever predicted a lame plot...

    Anyways, there's no point in discussing anything completely subjective, if you state it's subjective from the start everyone is going to be too stubborn to agree on anything and we will all be yammering gibberish to each other that although only means anything to us we futilely try to express it to someone else. Subjective things have no bearing on anyone but yourself, why is it discussed?
    >> Anonymous 06/06/10(Sun)00:36 No.103298

    OP here, the purpose of this thread is to read other people opinions. I'm pretty sure most of us want or are in the video game industry and would find this thread relevant to their interests. Now, a lot of popular discussion topics are subjective (i.e Religion, politics).
    >> Anonymous 06/06/10(Sun)00:39 No.103299
    ok, Im in a chatty mood, Im going to take this one on:
    >Subjective things have no bearing on anyone but yourself, why is it discussed?

    Lets take music for example, sure there is the technical side of music, the mechanics of pitches of sound and how they relate to eachother on scales to form chords and whatnot. But once you get past the technical details, what is left? What is the objective side of music that motivates people to have long discussions as to who is "best". You cant define music in an objective way.
    >> dirigible 06/06/10(Sun)00:57 No.103308
    Really? Cause I'd say that music is very mathematical. Sit down and think about what goes on in your average song, from a math standpoint. Almost every song follows the same general pattern.

    People have writing songs down to a science. This type of beat if it's pop, this type if it's reggae. These chords if I want it to be happy, these for sad.
    >> Anonymous 06/06/10(Sun)01:03 No.103313

    >Really? Cause I'd say that video games is very mathematical. Sit down and think about what goes on in your average video game, from a math standpoint. Almost every video game follows the same general pattern.

    >People have developing games down to a science. This type of beat if it's RPG, this type if it's Action. These design patterns if I want it to be happy, these for sad.
    >> Anonymous 06/06/10(Sun)01:05 No.103314
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    >these for fear
    >> Anonymous 06/06/10(Sun)01:07 No.103317
    you can tell when someone has manufactured music just by fitting it into mathematical patterns. Its called filler, or commercial crap, or elevator music
    >> dirigible 06/06/10(Sun)01:35 No.103330
    >commercial crap
    Allright, I'm just gonna say it:
    The only art that has ever mattered is the art that was made to be sold. Defy me and name an important piece of art that the artist didn't do on commission, or didn't try to sell.

    And stop bumping this thread, it's not 3D related.
    >> Anonymous 06/06/10(Sun)01:51 No.103338

    Listen to some music, do you really think it's simple beats? Don't you notice all there little tricks that somehow make sense to a bunch of different people? You can't just slam your dick on a keyboard and have art, don't you notice they are using logic to bring about certain emotions? Maybe it is a bit cultural but can't you see how they are manipulating our emotions? The beats/lyrics are generally comprehended the same way by people and when you make some good combinations you can really sway people into a mindset and into feeling certain ways.

    If there's any logical way to go about it that generally works I think that's proof music isn't bullshit. Although I don't think humans have the mental capacity to discuss what music is the best, I mean just try to describe why any music entertains you, it's not entirely some simple reaction I'm sure there's so many meanings that don't apply to our physical reality unlike a story where you can easily understand what emotions are being brought out and define it with so many words.
    >> Anonymous 06/06/10(Sun)01:58 No.103347
    >Defy me and name an important piece of art that the artist didn't do on commission, or didn't try to sell.

    all great artists, musicians, writers were discovered, not created. any artist who proclaims his work to be great art on his own has always been a failure and a charlatan.
    >> Anonymous 06/06/10(Sun)02:02 No.103353
    What's your point? This doesn't change the fact that the only good art is the art that's made for money.
    >Look at me, using fancy words.
    >> Anonymous 06/06/10(Sun)02:07 No.103356
    no, no great artist has ever said "look I made great art, give me money", appreciation of great art can only be given by others, not earned by oneself
    >> dirigible 06/06/10(Sun)02:16 No.103362
    >look I made great art, give me money
    That's all artists ever say. Even Van Gogh - the most humble pie of artists - pimped himself out.

    All I'm saying is that dismissing "commercial crap" is retarded, since every great piece of art ever was commercial.

    Fuck, I for one think the whole art/not art separation is stupid. There's no such thing as 'art', as a thing separate from other things. It's all just more of the same.
    >> Anomynous 06/06/10(Sun)03:40 No.103369
    >Not even books are stories, but books have stories.

    The phone book?

    ITT Dirigible can't separate art from its medium.
    >> Anonymous 06/06/10(Sun)10:22 No.103502

    Of course not all books will have stories, but I don't understand your post, literature is considered a FORM OF ART. See OPs posts for reference.
    >> dirigible 06/06/10(Sun)13:05 No.103595
    My point was that not all books have stories. Thus, "book" is not an art form, but "story" is. And since video games have stories, video games have the same shot as books at being art.

    Scratch that, not 'being' art. At 'having' art.

    >ITT Dirigible can't separate art from its medium.
    That's exactly what I've been doing this entire time. Art is independent of media.
    >> Anonymous 06/06/10(Sun)13:18 No.103608
    >>made just for money

    Err, like nearly all games today?
    Seriously, my brother has a big shelf of about 50 games accross wii, 360 and Ps3, and I can barely bring myself to play ANY of them.

    Industry feels like it's dying to me.

    Bring back the type of creativity and depth seen in Major's Mask/ Resident evil one, zero, four/ donkey kong country 1,2 / Final fantasy 7, etc. please.

    Not Op here.
    >> Anonymous 06/07/10(Mon)02:43 No.104363

    >video game industry

    it's livelier than ever, it just don't know where to go next. WE NEED ANOTHER MIYAMOTO to take it to the next step.
    >> dirigible 06/07/10(Mon)03:11 No.104375
    RE4 was last generation. It was ported to this generation. Braid and Portal are current gen. I wouldn't say it's dying. I agree that it doesn't know where to go though. For a while everyone wanted an mmo. Now everyone wants motion sensing. The other big thing is casual games. Farmville, etc.

    >We need another Miyamoto
    >Miyamoto is still alive
    >> Anomynous 06/07/10(Mon)03:34 No.104382

    Phone Book guy here.

    >That's exactly what I've been doing this entire time. Art is independent of media.

    To me it sounded more like you were using stories as a way of legitimizing games as an art form.
    >> dirigible 06/07/10(Mon)03:41 No.104383
    Sure do wish people would stop bumping the thread. Isn't very 3D in here.

    In a sense, I was. I was saying
    -People say books are art
    -Books are just a medium
    -Video games are just a medium
    -Why not say video games are art?
    >> Anonymous 06/07/10(Mon)03:51 No.104386
    Shadow of Colossus is the Mona Lisa of video games.
    >> Anonymous 06/07/10(Mon)03:52 No.104387

    Nobody wants motion sensing, it's being forced upon us. Remember these two words when Xbox 360 Natal launches this fall: "virtual boy". It's going to sell units at first, but will be forgotten in a year.
    >> Anonymous 06/07/10(Mon)04:01 No.104391
    There was something that always got to me in Half Life 2 Episode 2

    Right before Alyx gets stabbed by the hunters, as you approach the building a hunter will cry out which will scare some crows on a nearby hill. If you follow the crows with your camera, you can see a hunter on a roof looking down at you for a split second before it runs away.

    It's something that people really won't notice their first time playing through but it seems that the game is full of small cues that add to the overall narrative of the game.
    >> Anonymous 06/07/10(Mon)04:04 No.104393

    The antlion tunnel scene was one of the most well-orchestrated sequences ever designed in FPS, and I've played FPS since wolf3d- 17 years. The combination of suspense/terror and adrenaline was nearly unmatched. He was always *right* there, and not through some kind of artificial, corny scripting, rather because the design was...artfully crafted.
    >> Anomynous 06/07/10(Mon)04:07 No.104394
    >Why not say video games are art?

    Every medium brings with it certain inherent properties that must be considered. You can lose sight of those factors by equating a medium with the artistic works it might convey I wish Marshall McLuhan were here. :(

    Polite sage to keep from bumping non-/3/ material.
    >> Anonymous 06/07/10(Mon)04:25 No.104399

    >> dirigible 06/07/10(Mon)05:24 No.104438
    I don't disagree.

    But a story is what we call art. To say that video games cannot be art - when video games obviously have stories - is to say that something about the medium robs it's content of artistic value : a strange concept to me.

    I don't deny that the medium changes the message, but let's look at it another way:

    story = art?...yes
    putting story in video game...
    video game change story?...yes

    story is now different because of the medium

    story still story?...yes
    story = art?...yes
    video game have art?...yes

    If a story is art (good art or bad art doesn't matter), then a video game can have art.

    Too bad /v/ is too full of trolls to properly host a thread like this.
    >> Anonymous 06/07/10(Mon)05:25 No.104440

    Definatley checking that out once i get my new computer.
    >> Anomynous 06/07/10(Mon)08:21 No.104538
    >To say that video games cannot be art - when video games obviously have stories - is to say that something about the medium robs it's content of artistic value : a strange concept to me.

    It still sounds like you're trying to equate having art, and being art. Are you separating the medium from its artistic work, or aren't you?

    Stories are art. They can come in many medium.

    There's nothing wrong with being a medium; art owes everything to its medium because it can't exist without one. Nothing is robbed here. But I'm not going to call a medium an art just because it can have art...that's just silly.
    >> Anonymous 06/07/10(Mon)09:54 No.104562

    Miyamoto is already dead, he hasn't done anything descent since Pikmin.
    >> dirigible 06/07/10(Mon)16:29 No.104709
    I know it's silly. But people call books art. Why not call video games art? Instead of trying to change how they think, I'm trying to get rid of their hypocrisy.
    >> Anonymous 06/07/10(Mon)19:04 No.104780
    Not the same guy, but I noticed it too after reading an article about it somewhere... I'll see if i can find it.
    >> David 06/07/10(Mon)19:43 No.104785
    I prefer to call it a craft.
    Art is about expression. I don't really do much expression in asset creation. For me, it's more like, I'm just making something that I think people will enjoy.

    Like how a craftsman makes a chair. There's artistic skills involved, but rather than hanging it on a wall or putting it on a pedestal, I just sell it to people who want it. To people who have the desire of sitting in a chair as badass as mine.

    Games are crafts. I'd rather be called a craftsman than an artist, anyway.
    >> Anomynous 06/07/10(Mon)19:55 No.104789
    It's certainly been my experience that game developers approach their work in a craftsman-like fashion.
    >> Anonymous 06/07/10(Mon)20:04 No.104793
    Of course video games can be called art. Level design is an art in itself. Take any great game you've played that has had any emotional effect on you. I'm sure there was something different, something in the actual flow of your movement throughout the story that caused said emotion. Environmental designer's JOBS are literally to make the most immersive experience for the player, so that every single polygon is observed to the fullest extent.

    Of course modelers' jobs are to be artists, to create in 3d. This shouldn't need explanation.

    Texturer's jobs are an art as well, including aesthetic choices for color, tones, hues, warms, cools etc.

    Of course video games are art because everything is art; art is subjective. Whether you agree with it being art, or whether the masses agree is of no importance to anyone's opinion.
    >> Anonymous 06/07/10(Mon)20:05 No.104794
    >making video games is an art
    >playing it is not
    >> Anomynous 06/07/10(Mon)20:50 No.104820
    But do these things legitimize games as an art form, or do games merely provide yet another medium for visual arts, music, story telling... ?

    I've always rejected the gestalt argument. The fact that games can aggregate many forms of art into a single medium does not make the medium a form of art.
    >> Video Games !!55TQ8/ELOOt 06/08/10(Tue)23:06 No.105440
    Thanks for the many responses. One last BUMP to see if it gets another wind.

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