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  • File : 1324658067.jpg-(34 KB, 300x360, 1294633510447.jpg)
    34 KB Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:34 No.21705481  
    Do you have to play an instrument to fully appreciate music?
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:35 No.21705505
    I would say yes, but then I'd sound like a douchebag..
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:39 No.21705544
    I think you have to have at least some kind of ear for music.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:39 No.21705549

    >inb4 theoryfags everywhere who don't know what "appreciate" means

    Threads like these always suck shit.
    >> Drop It Like Skrillex !5ayMqwRzYc 12/23/11(Fri)11:40 No.21705552
    I think you just have to know the essentials of music theory and structure.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:41 No.21705564
    Absolutely not, and this is coming from somebody who plays piano and guitar.
    >> Franz Liszt !!ixFboNvY7Y1 12/23/11(Fri)11:42 No.21705574
    No. You need an ear, and a damn good one.
    The ability to play an instrument will further your understanding and appreciation of the music - but it's the ear that matters.
    It's your ability to sort through all the sounds and pick out the ones you (dis)like - then go the next step, maybe, and determine why you (dis)like them.

    I don't think you need to be able to play an instrument to fully appreciate music, but you certainly need to know how they work.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:42 No.21705575
    Depends on what you mean by appreciate. Appreciate in the scholarly sense, yes you do, because it's in the definition. Appreciate in the general sense, not really.

    I find it kinda helps to know an instrument, but it's really just a different way to look at music. Not better, just different.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:42 No.21705577
    But there are highly skilled instrumentalists who dont "know" any of that, they just have an intuitive understanding of it.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:43 No.21705592
    Do you have to be a writer to appreciate a book?

    No, clearly not, but if you are you can be a douche about disliking it without sounding dumb
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:43 No.21705600
    I don't have to be a chef fully appreciate food.
    I don't have to be a director to fully appreciate film.
    I don't have to be a programmer to fully appreciate vidya.
    I don't have to be a porn star to fully appreciate sex.

    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:44 No.21705610
    >they just have an intuitive understanding of it.
    Intuitive implies untaught skills, I'd disagree.

    They can perform well, that doesn't take too much theory.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:45 No.21705632
    >I don't have to be a programmer to fully appreciate vidya.
    Being a programmer, you have no idea the joys of playing snake for hours... simply because you programmed it.
    >> Drop It Like Skrillex !5ayMqwRzYc 12/23/11(Fri)11:46 No.21705633

    I'll rephrase it; for MOST people, a basic understanding of music theory helps to appreciate music. And I mean basic as in the stuff you pick up from discussing music with others.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:49 No.21705685

    Isn't that because YOU personally created it more than you understanding how to create it.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:51 No.21705710
    Well... yeah, but I really was having a blast playing snake.

    I also make music and you just can't appreciate music as I do straight after writing it.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:51 No.21705721
    Had the same argument with a friend; I was saying you don't, I have only just started learning the piano and I feel that I can already appreciate music for what it is. He's been playing for some time now and claims I'll begin to appreciate it properly once I begin to play properly. Maybe he's right, but I'm pretty sure I appreciate talent already.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:53 No.21705735
    lol pornstars dont enjoy sex.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)11:54 No.21705751
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    >I don't have to be a chef fully appreciate food.
    >I don't have to be a director to fully appreciate film.
    >I don't have to be a programmer to fully appreciate vidya.

    >he thinks these aren't true
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:56 No.21705768
    If that is true then that automatically leads to the fact that you need to play EVERY instrument that you are listening to, to fully appreciate what you are listening to.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:56 No.21705774
    In terms of that picture

    Appreciation is not necessarily understanding and in most cases, they never correlate.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)11:56 No.21705782
    You don't though. "Fully appreciate" is a meaningless term.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)11:57 No.21705785
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    Oh, you!
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:57 No.21705787

    Appreciation =/= Understanding
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:58 No.21705794
    You cannot appreciate what you do not know, to fully appreciate something you need to completely understand it otherwise you are missing aspects of it.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)11:58 No.21705806
    That's not really clever, all you're doing is abusing a humourless meme without backing up your statements.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)11:58 No.21705808
    Imagine if you found out that all of your favorite artists music is actually plagiarized or really lazily created. You'd understand it, but you wouldn't appreciate it.

    Appreciation is something borne from misunderstanding something. Ignorance is bliss and all that shit.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)11:59 No.21705813
    I guess no one is allowed to appreciate life then.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:00 No.21705822
    They can appreciate it but they cannot fully appreciate it.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:00 No.21705832
    >I guess no one is allowed to appreciate life then.
    No one understands life.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:00 No.21705839
    What does fully appreciate mean? It doesn't mean anything, how would you quantify "appreciation?
    >> Twinplus !!cGnbHk09efX 12/23/11(Fri)12:01 No.21705843
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    You don't need to, but I'd say it sure as fuck helps.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:01 No.21705853
    Yes, that was my point.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:02 No.21705864

    >Using piss poor memes to try and get point across. Understand isn't appreciate.

    I'm a baker, it doesn't mean I appreciate bread because I make the shit. I couldn't get two shits about it either way tbh. Jobs a Job

    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:02 No.21705871
    This is called Loki's wager, and it is a logical fallacy.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:02 No.21705873
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    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:02 No.21705878
    None of those are actually, especially the last one.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:03 No.21705882
    >What does fully appreciate mean?
    To have a positive feeling about, if you feel positively about something, you appreciate it.

    Understanding something will almost always lead to a neutral feeling towards something. Neutrality is not understanding, neutrality is being neutral.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:03 No.21705891
    Way to misuse a logical fallacy.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:04 No.21705898
    Yeah, can you both stop tripping?

    Also #ismokeweed
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:04 No.21705899
    Appreciate means to know the worth of and be grateful for.
    It isn't something like quantifying, it is more about recognising the aspects you know, and what you don't.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:05 No.21705905
    Patrician Council #ismokeweed
    Now you too can be a CLT rip-off. Also, back to /b/, newkid.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:06 No.21705922
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    I think music theory, while facilitating the creation of music, hinders its enjoyment. Conscious intellectual process should be minimal while listening to music, otherwise the emotional impact is dulled. Sure, there's pleasure to be had in appreciation of hearing theory in practice but if you want the experience the artist intended tell your head to shut up for a while.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:06 No.21705925
    i was considering appreciation as realising the depths of skill and unique beauty behind the music.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:06 No.21705926
    So what is "full appreciation?"
    There is no such thing, there's just appreciation, and appreciation.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:07 No.21705932
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    >Fuck you, Patrician Council!
    >I appreciate music just as much as you do!
    >It doesn't matter that you have knowledge that I don't, and therefore I can't actually know whether that knowledge (and consequent understanding) leads to greater appreciation and enjoyment!
    >It is just as valuable to be ignorant!

    >my face when furious plebeians
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:08 No.21705947
    What an inconsequential post.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:08 No.21705951
    >I think music theory, while facilitating the creation of music, hinders its enjoyment.
    I can turn my head off and just listen, whilst focusing on the moment. I don't need to think in terms of theory, but sometimes I transcribe melodies in my head that I'm listening to.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:09 No.21705955
    Are you seriously going to argue that there aren't degrees of appreciation? Oh, mercy...

    >still trying to use Loki's wager even after I called him out on it
    >> punkrawk !!kPOkefM9mw1 12/23/11(Fri)12:09 No.21705963
    no, but you need to have an understanding of the history of music and have an idea of how music is crafted.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:09 No.21705964
    Sure there are, but what is "full appreciation?"
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:10 No.21705969
    nicely put sir, probs most worth while comment ITT.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:10 No.21705974
    >have an understanding of the history of music

    >have an idea of how music is crafted.
    I don't think many classical listeners understand 4 part harmonies, bro.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:10 No.21705976
    It's funny how all patrician music sucks and the only reason people listen to it, is because some stuck up internet superhero tells your bad for not listening to it....
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:11 No.21705982
    A phrase I never used.

    However, by your own tacit admission there is "fuller appreciation", so my points stand.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:12 No.21705993
    Your point was that understanding music theory leads to "more appreciation" or music, which it doesn't.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:12 No.21705999
    No but it helps. Been playing the geetar for about 6 years and it helped me understand composition.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:13 No.21706016
    >that feel when no one but these two know who's who
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:13 No.21706018
    I wouldn't say that you would have to play an instrument. You would have to understand theory (those two things usually go hand in hand, though). However, at that point you're usually just looking at music from a dry, academic perspective which arguably takes some of the fun out of it.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:14 No.21706026
    No you absolutely don't.

    Appreciating something because you know what goes into it is false appreciation and it adds some bias.

    It's like saying a super technical metal song is good just because it's hard to play.

    Nabokov (who ironically disliked music) says in his essay about good readers and good writers that a good reader does not need to be a budding author to appreciate a book, but instead needs to have a dictionary, an artistic sense, a memory, and an imagination.

    We might be able to translate the dictionary into our terms as music theory, but that's debatable.
    >> Captain Jew, The God Slayer !v05iFPlMDM 12/23/11(Fri)12:14 No.21706027
    K, everybody. Listen up. What comes first? Chicken? Or the egg? Wait.. that's a different story.

    1. You have to love music enough to pick up an instrument, and even more to dedicate time into learning it. And more to get really good.

    2. Musicians are listeners first, players second. Read above.

    3. I can say that about 95% of /mu/ don't appreciate music enough simply due to their close-mindedness. Yes, bold statement. But how many times do you see the '/mu/core essentials' showing up on this board? All i get here is rotten air.

    4. In return, learning to play an instrument is rather a humbling experience. You learn about the hardships, you get the experience of the first moments of a growing musician, rather than a glance; admiration towards those you look up to build strongly, feeding you the motivation you need to grow more as a player and a human being; your philosophy on music and life grows.

    I think it's safe to say, OP. Yes.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:14 No.21706036
    >no one but these two knows or cares who's who
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:15 No.21706038
    You can appreciate the same thing from different perspectives, but neither is greater than the other. How much you appreciate something is decided by you, not by some faggot on the internet.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:17 No.21706077
    None of your points are actually valid.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:18 No.21706095
    I'm not arguing you on that. I'm saying that understanding theory can allow you to appreciate music on a different level by giving you a better idea of what is going on within the piece.
    >> Captain Jew, The God Slayer !v05iFPlMDM 12/23/11(Fri)12:18 No.21706100
    Cold hard case of "Well, that's just, your opinion, man."

    Viscious circle. How bout that radiohead? Shit sucks.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:20 No.21706124
    But they aren't.
    3 has nothing to do with anything,
    2 and 4 aren't necessarily true
    and 1 is just wrong.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:20 No.21706136
    >You can appreciate the same thing from different perspectives, but neither is greater than the other
    This entire 'it's subjective!!!!!' mindset is what's killing music criticisms. If one guy discusses the structure, time signature, melody etc of the piece it's far more appreciative than a person simply stating 'it sucks because there's no groove'.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:21 No.21706137
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    It does. How can you appreciate a piece like, say, Fantasia in A Minor by Mozart if you aren't able to understand what makes it so unique and incredible?

    You may be able to enjoy it, and therefore appreciate it to a certain degree, but your enjoyment will be grounded in well-intentioned ignorance and neither as comprehensive nor as fulfilling as a person who possesses the requisite knowledge.

    How do I know this? Because I've actually been in both positions, unlike the majority of you.
    >> Franz Liszt !!ixFboNvY7Y1 12/23/11(Fri)12:21 No.21706141
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    I think often an understanding of theory does just the opposite.
    Theory is fundamentally descriptive, it creates a typology for sounds and gives names to patterns that exist independently of that theory.
    But if I understand the theory behind something, just because I know the minute details doesn't mean I can't appreciate the big picture. In fact, more often than not, it will show me just how all those details come together to create the big picture.

    Telling your head to shut up, in my opinion, is one of the stupidest things you can do while approaching music, or any art for that matter. It doesn't have to betray the artist's intent, and often that kind of individual, intense experiencing of an artist's work is just what they want.

    When I go to the museum, I can look at this painting and see an apparently peaceful scene. The colors are unprovoking, there are only two people - it's a lonely scene, but a calm one.

    Or perhaps we can take the Sylvia Plath approach and rip into every detail of the scene - looking at the contrast of their attire, the broken landscape, their positioning, and examining every element to come out with a different appreciation for the picture ( - that's not to say either approach is more correct than another, but it certainly changes the handling of the art, and it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to say that Plath's getting more out of the piece, both technically and emotionally.

    But both appreciations can still be valid, and they can still be "good" - despite the fact that neither party is himself a painter.

    Music is analogous.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:21 No.21706148
    One is not greater than the other, they are different perspectives of the same piece.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:22 No.21706166
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    This post is 100% correct.

    pic related, and even worse
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:25 No.21706202
    You're arguing something completely different. Of course the first guy is going to appreciate it more because the second guy in your example doesn't even like the song.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:25 No.21706218
    Music is such an amazing form of expression that so many people cease to appreciate. Like all forms of art, the beat of the drum and the boom of the voice
    have one great thing in common with all the actions we make. From the stomps of our feet to the tears that shed from our inspired eyes, stress, being one of the many components in art, goes to show that every one of us wields a powerful instrument of our own.

    You niggers are all walking artists. APPRECIATE LIFE!!!!!!!!
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:26 No.21706232
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    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:26 No.21706236
    Fine then 'I like the song because it has groove'.
    Now you can't nitpick.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:26 No.21706243
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    Yeah, there's something cathartic about playing music
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:27 No.21706245
    Patrician Council#ismokeweed
    Trip all you want, this is a shitty trip.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:27 No.21706253
    Do you have to be able to write to fully appreciate literature?
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:27 No.21706259
    "Greater" is an inherently nebulous term, and not one which I used. If you must continue to resort to straw men arguments, please discontinue this debate.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:27 No.21706261
    How does that make the "more ignorant" guy less appreciative than the first guy? Because you said so? lol
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:28 No.21706274
    Namedropping logical fallacies doesn't make them true or prove a point.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:29 No.21706283
    Because he doesn't even know what he thinks he's appreciating.

    This isn't rocket surgery.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:29 No.21706286
    Yes, because his criticisms are insubstantial and barely touch upon the song itself.
    He barely recognises any of the song, and only focuses on a single insubstantial vague term.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:29 No.21706291


    He also says that when appreciating something you can't rely on your emotions to tell you whether or not a piece of art is good, which is something I see being done far too often on /mu/.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:30 No.21706316
    You employed a straw man fallacy (if you are unfamiliar with this term, it means you attempted to refute an argument which was distinct from any argument I made).
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:30 No.21706321
    So because he can't articulate his thoughts on a song means he appreciates it less? That's wrong.
    >> Franz Liszt !!ixFboNvY7Y1 12/23/11(Fri)12:31 No.21706331
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    hey pplz u shud b lisztening to dis guy bc he actually has a pretty damn good case, and you'd benefit from reading his posts and linked essay.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:31 No.21706339
    This strikes me as an incredibly mechanical approach to appreciating music. It's as if I were to say that I enjoy driving my car more because I know the inner workings of its engine.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:31 No.21706348
    Again, you would be able to appreciate it without the knowledge of it's inner workings, but knowing them would allow you a completely separate type of appreciation of the subtleties of the work.

    Serious suggestion here: maybe this thread would do better on /lit/ where all of the armchair philosophers congregate.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:32 No.21706349
    But I didn't and saying I did isn't proving a point.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:32 No.21706356
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    >confusing cause and effect
    *Because he appreciates the song less, he can't articulate his thoughts.

    Something tells me your understanding of logic is as tenuous as your understanding of music.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:32 No.21706362
    It's not a choice, he cannot verbally expand on his ideas because he doesn't understand the piece and has almost no recognition of certain musical terms. Therefore he appreciates it far less than someone who recognises all these criteria.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:33 No.21706371
    >"Greater" is an inherently nebulous term, and not one which I used
    >and not one which I used

    Do please try to keep up.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:33 No.21706377
    Oh so you're telling me how a hypothetical person's mind works? Basically, it's not a good example and you have yet to prove your point.
    >> Franz Liszt !!ixFboNvY7Y1 12/23/11(Fri)12:33 No.21706379
    Mechanical, artistic, and emotional are NOT incompatible values.

    /lit/ would have more productive discussions of most of the shit that pops up on this board.
    >> Captain Jew, The God Slayer !v05iFPlMDM 12/23/11(Fri)12:34 No.21706385
    Do you guys even know what the fuck you're all talking about anymore?

    I mean, i was just being a dick, but serious.

    Like EVERYTHING, you have to engage with it to appreciate it. Like getting with a girl/guy and getting to know them better on a date. Or reading a book from an author you love. You're engaging with the thoughts that ran through their head when they wrote it.

    You appreciate shit more when it has sentimentally affected you. SIMPLE. AS. THAT.

    You fucking morons have to delve into THEORY. MUSIC. FUCKING. THEORY. That's just a NAVIGATOR for your musical mind to get your thoughts out onto paper or string.

    I'm done, man. Fucking /mu/. This is why we can't have nice things.jpg.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:34 No.21706395
    That has nothing to do with the original point, I'm not going to argue minutia because you're too much of a faggot to deal with it.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:35 No.21706414
    My reasoning follows from basic logical principles. You're the one making sweeping assumptions.

    >Something tells me your understanding of logic is as tenuous as your understanding of music.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:36 No.21706421
    Meaningless post.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:37 No.21706439
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    >That has nothing to do with the original point
    Then why would you have brought it up?

    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:37 No.21706442
    Mad and wrong.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:37 No.21706446
    >Mechanical, artistic, and emotional are NOT incompatible values.
    No, of course not. I suppose it's what aspect you place value on most that takes precedence.

    For me music is largely about an emotional connect. That's not to say I don't appreciate the mechanics of it; I play several instruments and compose (poorly). But knowing those mechanics doesn't really change my connect with the music. I suppose I'm a bit of a commoner in that respect.
    >> Captain Jew, The God Slayer !v05iFPlMDM 12/23/11(Fri)12:38 No.21706449
    Shut the fuck up. Everything on this board is invalid to you. Show us your record collection in a 3x3 grid. Come on, faggot.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:38 No.21706453
    Stopping this part of the "conversation" because you're just going to bring up small details that don't matter.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:38 No.21706460
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    >reads a post that soundly refutes him

    You're disgracing the trip you're wearing.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:39 No.21706471
    More meaningless posts.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:40 No.21706489
    >small details that don't matter
    You mean small details that render your arguments groundless? Duly noted.
    >> Captain Jew, The God Slayer !v05iFPlMDM 12/23/11(Fri)12:41 No.21706498
    Yeah, man. You enjoy me being mad? Is that what this whole thread is about? Getting someone mad and feeling good about having an influence on someone's emotions?

    Glad you feel good. But please... tell me how you appreciate something -- ANYTHING -- more. You can simply listen to something. But digging deeper into what it's about can increase the value at which you appreciate it.

    /simpleshit, dudes.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:41 No.21706503
    No they don't. You just nitpick because you can't come up with a better rebuttal. Don't bother replying, I don't care.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:41 No.21706510
    OP didn't say "appreciate", he said "fully appreciate".

    Yes you do need to have a deep technical understanding of something to fully appreciate it. People who say otherwise probably don't have a deep technical understanding of anything.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:42 No.21706516
    I don't know what's more pathetic, the original CLT, or the several people pretending to be him on the Internet.

    Makes sense that someone would play make believe with trips given the cosplay types that inhabit 4chan.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:42 No.21706517
    lol talking to yourself
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:42 No.21706523
    >You may be able to enjoy it, and therefore appreciate it to a certain degree, but your enjoyment will be grounded in well-intentioned ignorance and neither as comprehensive nor as fulfilling as a person who possesses the requisite knowledge.

    So as far as I can tell this hasn't been successfully refuted by anyone? Does that mean the argument is over?
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:44 No.21706552
    >can't enjoy something because you don't understand it
    It's been refuted countless times, read the thread.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:45 No.21706571
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    Here's my two cents:

    Looking at music from a pure listener's perspective is something completely different from dissecting music on an academic level. I'm not trying to say that one is inherently greater than the other. They're two different things.

    With the academic approach we have terms to categorize and label the music. This is in 4/4. This is a I IV V I progression. It's a good way of discussing music because it uses defined terms to describe it.

    At the same time, you can have no knowledge of how music works, but still enjoy it simply because you think it sounds good or because it connects with you on a personal level in some way. This is no less valid than the academic way. It's arguably one of the most important aspects of the music. It is however completely intangible and varies greatly from person to person.

    I suppose you could say they're two sides of the same coin.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:45 No.21706574
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    >People who say otherwise probably don't have a deep technical understanding of anything.
    This is my theory. This thread reeks of inferiority complexes.

    >You just nitpick
    My dear child, "nitpicking" IS how logic works! You put forward a flawed premise, and I drew attention to the flaws. Instead of sulking and being stubborn, why not revise your premise and try to make it correct?
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:46 No.21706580
    I agree, and I've attempted to say this before but I guess the point didn't come across well over the faggotry.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:46 No.21706584
    "no u" is not a rebuttal.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:46 No.21706585
    >You may be able to enjoy it
    Turns out that people who think you don't need to understand something to fully appreciate it also don't understand or appreciate the English language.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:48 No.21706602

    Emotional appreciation of art is the most shallow appreciation.

    It's like you're expecting the artist to cater to you personally. By doing this you take away all credit from the artists as a creator. This type of individualism is the downfall of music criticism.

    That's not to say you can't appreciate emotion in music. Take for example the song "Strange Fruit." Do I need to be Black to identify the pain the song is trying to convey? Of course not.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:48 No.21706603
    lol owned
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:49 No.21706614
    >Emotional appreciation of art is the most shallow appreciation.
    No it's not.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:49 No.21706615

    This, totally. This thread is dumb.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:49 No.21706622
    You are literally arguing that being ignorant is no worse than being informed.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:50 No.21706636
    >two cents

    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:50 No.21706641
    Nope, the argument is pertaining to "enjoyment" and "appreciation," not who is more or less informed.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:50 No.21706643
    >this is a sad song and i'm sad so it's a good song

    >> Captain Jew, The God Slayer !v05iFPlMDM 12/23/11(Fri)12:51 No.21706645
    YES! Exactly!
    Can't speak the language of music? Want to? Learn!
    -insert question regarding the inability to do something-? Want to? Fucking learn. Do it.

    That's how you can appreciate it. Digging deep into it, soaking in everything about it so you can understand as much as you desire to.

    Like some cunt saying "French is such a beautiful language" and never learns it. How can you appreciate something if you don't have that yearn to embrace it fully?
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:51 No.21706649

    I'd say the most shallow appreciation is stuff like, "Well The Beatles sold the most music so they are the best band ever and are great."
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:52 No.21706658
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    >that feel when puns acknowledged
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:52 No.21706662
    Oh wow man, someone enjoys a song because it makes them feel something, how shallow of them!
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:53 No.21706663
    But sales has nothing to do with artistic appreciation. Perhaps historic appreciation, but not artistic.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:54 No.21706675
    yeah that's why it's shallow.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:54 No.21706679
    protip: knowing music theory and judging music on an academic level doesn't mean that you're more "informed" than someone who appreciates music on a non academic level, because there is a chance that they know music theory as well but chose not to judge music based on that.

    This man speaks the truth
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:55 No.21706684
    ITT: Ignoratio elenchi and petitio principii everywhere, on both sides of the argument.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)12:55 No.21706686
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    The only trouble with this is that you seem to be drawing a faulty distinction. Namely, that a reasoned, theoretical approach to enjoying a piece of music precludes or is separate from a base, "emotional" (to use /mu/ vernacular) approach.

    This is simply untrue. In fact, in many cases a scholar of music will have been moved emotionally by a piece and have been driven by his enjoyment to "take it apart to see how it works". Anyone who's read the sheet music of a symphony will understand what I am talking about.

    Is one "better" or "greater" than the other? This is ambiguous terminology, which is why I haven't used it.

    Is one deeper, more complete, and - wait for it - fuller than the other? Obviously. By definition, someone who appreciates music on both levels has a fuller appreciation than someone who is only capable of one.

    This is logical and irrefutable, which is why it has not been refuted.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:56 No.21706700
    It's not because we're talking about something that has the ability to affect anyone regardless of how informed they are. Becoming informed allows you a different kind enjoyment that's separate from the kind previously mentioned.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:59 No.21706731
    Yeah, it's completely prostituting the music.

    There's nothing wrong with music making you feel something, but when the feelings stem from personal experiences the appreciation becomes shallow.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)12:59 No.21706733
    since this thread is little more than semantic juggling i'll suggest that what you're describing is not an appreciation of music, but of composition.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)13:00 No.21706742
    >In Which /mu/ Is Made Slightly Uncomfortable, Because They Realize That This Is Why They Listen To All That Shitty Indie Rock

    This guy gets it.

    Dependent on appreciation.
    Dependent on knowledge.

    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:01 No.21706759
    >protip: knowing music theory and judging music on an academic level doesn't mean that you're more "informed" than someone who appreciates music on a non academic level, because there is a chance that they know music theory as well but chose not to judge music based on that.

    You can't just shut off your understanding of something, not that you would know that seeing as you probably don't understand anything of interest.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:02 No.21706764

    >This is logical and irrefutable, which is why it has not been refuted.

    No it isn't. You haven't even made an argument.

    I don't understand why people on this board think you are smarter than you make out. You do this ALL THE TIME. You make several statements, but they aren't arguments. Arguments have premises, conclusions, and inferences. You've made none. You ask rhetorical questions, and then give answers in the forms of statements. That's not a fucking argument, neither is it logical. It's not logical because statements aren't arguments.

    No one can attack what you are saying, because it is DAMN HARD to attack single propositions considered by themselves.

    You do this all the time, and quite frankly I'm sick of your shit. You are a phoney, who pretends to be smart, but gets by on slick rhetoric, and shitty arguing skills.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:02 No.21706770
    But it's not even related to artistic appreciation so someone who only likes the beatles because of their sales would have to be deluded to think they were identifying with their artistic output.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:03 No.21706781
    You do realize that you do everything you accuse him of in this post.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:04 No.21706785
    >You can't just shut off your understanding of something

    but I never said that you could.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)13:05 No.21706800
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    Can you elaborate on this?

    I don't draw a distinction, personally. When I enjoy a fine meal, I am really appreciating the cook's craft. When I enjoy a film, I am really enjoying the director, actors, and other personnel.

    When I am enjoying a piece, I am enjoying the composer's craft. Because I understand a good deal more of this than I do of cooking or film-making, I can say I appreciate the music on a - here it comes again - fuller scale than I do the meal or film, and this fullness of appreciation (and consequent enjoyment) proceeds directly from my knowledge.

    I don't see why some people (not referring to you, anon) find this logical progression so inflammatory.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)13:07 No.21706823
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    >premises, conclusions, and inferences
    >You've made none
    Are you actually illiterate? Did you read the post you replied to?
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:07 No.21706828


    If CLT understands logic, he should understand how an argument is formed.

    Arguments consist of premises, conclusions, and inferences.

    Single statements are the atoms of logical arguments. Considered by themselves, they aren't an argument. This is what he does. He comes into a thread, offers several statements, but no inferences, and then sits back to bat down whatever he feels like.

    Look at his post above. He asks a question, then posts a statement. That isn't a logical argument. But he thinks it is. Questions aren't arguments. Neither are single statements. This is logic 101 stuff.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:08 No.21706834
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    Hm ok. I have been be diverted by of the previous posts into arguing that knowledge of theory isn't a prerequisite to be able to enjoy music. I see now that the debate is actually about whether or not it is needed to 'fully' appreciate music.

    By looking the argument from the correct angle I'm able to see your logic very well. One does stand to reason that being able to appreciate both the technical and emotional aspects of the music would grant them a more rounded, or "fuller" appreciation.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:08 No.21706836
    >Patrician Council
    >Douche chills

    Eloquent phrasing there bro.
    A little thin on the facts, though.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:08 No.21706838
    I tend to focus on how the piece on a whole affects me emotionally rather than zoom in and nitpick specific sounds. So no.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)13:08 No.21706840
    >but chose not to judge music based on that.
    It was rather strongly implied. Otherwise there wouldn't have been any purpose to the comment.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:09 No.21706849
    If you understand something you cannot help but think about it to the extent of your understanding.

    I know this because there are things that I understand and I am unable to "choose" to ignore my knowledge when passing judgement.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)13:10 No.21706860
    I'm glad we were able to reach the same conclusion. I didn't think I was being unreasonable.
    >> Millers High Life !isvOjIHEpo 12/23/11(Fri)13:10 No.21706861
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    >still arguing with Patrician Council
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:10 No.21706863
    appreciating music purely on a simple "emotional" level makes music nothing more than stimuli. One who appreciates music only in an emotional reaction seeks music for nothing more than the resulting chemical changes in their brain.

    If one can draw a new thought, idea, or perspective or otherwise is able to articulate something out a piece (beyond a basic emotional response) than that person is able to appreciate the piece in a fuller way.

    the idea of playing an instrument or knowing theory really doesn't even apply.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:11 No.21706874
    >enjoy listening to music
    >fucking hate learning music
    I tried learning the guitar so many times and I just get bored. Shit man, music theory is the most uninteresting bullshit
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:13 No.21706891
    thank you
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:14 No.21706917
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    No, you don't HAVE to play an instrument to fully appreciate music. As others have said, you can respond to music on a purely emotional level, and understanding the music from a technical standpoint sometimes takes the mystery out of it.

    That being said, if you can listen to really technical music like bebop or jam band improvisations and hear it from a musician's analytical standpoint, then trust me - you're in the zone. You can appreciate it so much more than somebody who can't comprehend that shit. Every little note matters; every decision made by the improviser strikes you as interesting, amusing, beautiful, jarring, etc...
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:15 No.21706918
    what is patrician and how do i avoid being it
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:15 No.21706922
    Theory autodidact here. I kind of agree with you. It can be a little dry and abstract to wrap your head around unless you're able to practice it by applying it to a real instrument. That's when it starts really getting enjoyable.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:16 No.21706949
    I can see how this can apply to better to music, yeah, but I've been on a swim team since I was 11, and I don't look at little kids playing in the pool and thing "Hmph these kids have terrible mechanics, they can't fully appreciate swimming like I can."
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:17 No.21706957
    what pisses me off about these threads is that everyone posts what they think is deep stuff when it is just obvious shit that doesn't even bear discussion. plus all the trolling/people still falling for PC (morons)
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:17 No.21706958
    >That's when it starts really getting enjoyable.
    That's what I always figured. I never got further than trying to make myself remember what notes are on what frets without counting them.

    Have a terrible sense of beat as well (much worse than average), guess everything isn't for everyone. All guitar I do know is because of repetition
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)13:18 No.21706975
    I don't altogether disagree with your post, but am curious about your opinion.

    >the idea of playing an instrument or knowing theory really doesn't even apply.
    In and of themselves not necessarily, but would you say that they are common pathways toward attaining the vocabulary you mention?

    For instance, rather than saying "the middle section is different and gets really emotional" a person would say "when the minor-key piece modulates to III here it is striking and provokes an emotional response", or so on.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)13:20 No.21707009
    That's interesting. I'm a runner, and when I see someone out jogging and their elbows are all splayed I can't help but want to tell them how much energy and momentum they'd stop wasting if they'd only alter their posture.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:20 No.21707012
    >implying that new thoughts or ideas popping in your brain aren't results of chemical changes in your brain
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:20 No.21707016
    Do you make music? you seem to know theory, any chance I could hear it?
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:22 No.21707041
    This. People who say theory is bland and boring (myself included many years ago) are those who are too lazy to practice their scales.

    Musicianship can be a natural talent, yes, especially when you have a parent to guide you as a young kid. Those people have the best sort of advantage. But more importantly, musicianship just takes a lot of WORK WORK WORK. You need to practice scales, melodic exercises, harmonic series, etc...and then learn how to improvise (unless you're a classical musician...pfft)

    Too many beginners give up too quickly and are too quick to say "theory suxxx blahhg" just because they haven't discovered how fucking incredible the interrelationships between intervals and chord voicings are. Practice, learn to improvise, and you will all discover how truly rewarding music can be. It changed my life...
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:22 No.21707044
    But you probably don't watch little kids play in pools very attentively.

    I'm not saying that everybody goes around passing judgement on everything they survey(though some people do), but if you focus your attention on something, I don't believe you can ignore details that you understand.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:23 No.21707052
    music is the stuff that floats in the air. the physical manifestation of the composition (or not).

    the sound on a recording (or in a live setting) is quite distinct from the notes on a staff.

    terrible interpretations of good compositions are bad music.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:24 No.21707060
    And thoughts are more complex chemical changes than emotions.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)13:24 No.21707066
    I'm a composition student, but I'm afraid I don't have anything online yet.

    I might post some recordings of my band soon, but when I do it'll be anonymous.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:25 No.21707074
    Well, you can learn theory by applying the same technique: repetition. That's what I did and I'm pretty sure 90% of other people do as well. It just requires tenacity. Print off some diagrams of a guitar fretboard and fill one out with the correct notes of all the frets every day for a week or two. You'll have them memorized in no time. You can try practicing along with a metronome for an hour or so a day to develop natural rhythm. Music is like most anything else in that your returns are similar to your investments.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:25 No.21707080
    What type of music do you make with your band?
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:25 No.21707081
    Well, the kids in my story are more like the people described in >>21706863 who enjoy music for stimuli, while the joggers in your story are like those learning music theory, albeit struggling.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)13:26 No.21707091
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    >everyone posts what they think is deep stuff
    I protest. Nothing I posted was "deep", and in most cases was entirely self-evident. That is why I was so disappointed when the ersatz PC stuck his fingers in his ears and refused to try to understand.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:27 No.21707110
    Thing is practising scales is beyond fucking terribly boring. Forcing myself to do something boring repeatedly for hours upon hours because it might get fun later is tricky.

    Oh well, could always learn it later if I find motivation under a bed somewhere.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:28 No.21707134
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    define the word appreciate and then define the word fully and then maybe you'll get an actual answer. right now the way you posed it makes it sound like you're asking "Do you need to play an instrument to be the most music?" grammar and all intentional
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:29 No.21707149
    I agree with this and I think that people who stress the importance of a "purely emotional" reaction fail to realize that musicians, of course, respond with emotion to music as well. These people (not to sound like an elitist) simply haven't experienced that sensation of emotional investment that comes with a heightened understanding of the technical intricacies of the music.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:29 No.21707154
    okay and how does it apply to music theory?
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:30 No.21707160

    if both phrases refer to the same section in the piece then the only difference is obviously how they articulate their enjoyment of said section.

    Using language to show how you feel about a anything, much less a musical piece, is actually an extremely limited way of communication in of itself. That is way we have creative arts in the first place. So going back to your point, one person is able to use a better sense of vocabulary to articulate what is happening be he hasn't necessarily communicated why said section is so effective.

    Theory is merely a language to articulate the mechanical ideas behind the music. It is invaluable to those who seek to study, play, and write music, but it really has no connection to how a piece affects in the deepest ways.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:31 No.21707171

    *That is why

    sorry I kinda rushed a half assed response since I have to leave anyways. I was interested in going further but oh well :/
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)13:31 No.21707173
    We're fairly eclectic, but we have one principle songwriter who's most inspired by keyboard-based pop and digital electronic music, one who is most inspired by 20th-century classical music and singer-songwriters, and then me.

    The things we perform end up sounding in the middle of all that. Someone once said we sounded like "the Velvet Underground playing Stereolab covers", which I enjoyed and remembered.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:32 No.21707183
    It's not because it "might get fun"

    It's because it will become the most exhilarating and spiritually liberating thing you will ever experience...

    1. Practice.

    2. Learn how to improvise over whatever type of music it is you listen to. For those of you who like the blues / classic rock, that's always a good place to start.

    3. Smoke a doobie

    4. Play along to the music and improvise

    5. Realize that there's nothing better in the world (except playing with other people)
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:32 No.21707188
    Being a musician (or anything else really) requires first and foremost that you have the drive to work towards it. If you don't then it's not meant for you.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:34 No.21707202
    You don't learn to understand music theory in casual conversations with others. You learn it by taking college courses and/or private lessons and by practicing and applying it.

    I doubt anybody named "drop it like skrillex" knows the first thing about it.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)13:34 No.21707208
    >the only difference is obviously how they articulate their enjoyment of said section
    But one person understands why the section sounds different, whereas to the other it is a mystery. You're saying this is inconsequential?

    You're entitled to this opinion if you do, but I don't agree with it.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:34 No.21707214
    Well, it's rather problematic because how can you measure appreciation from one person to another?. With that problem solved (being able to measure appreciation), having more tools to "appreciate" something doesn't guarantee that other person without those tools won't "appreciate" a piece of art more. So, I don't know how we could measure appreciation (emotional stimuli?). We could gather scientific data if we had a correct definition of what to measure when we talk about this.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:35 No.21707223
    The short is answer is no. playing music compliments listening to it, but it isn't required.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:36 No.21707242

    >but when I do it'll be anonymous

    lol scared?
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:37 No.21707253
    Knowing how to play an instrument helps me appreciate it more, but it's not like it's required. Because I know how to play, I can hear something and be like "woah that's a really technical passage" or "holy shit polyrhythms everywhere"
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:37 No.21707256
    >drive to work towards it
    Obviously, used to have it but a lot of time wasted doing the same thing over and over without competent teachers or any incentive of my own to learn beyond looking up tabs.
    Yeah, eh, going to give it another go eventually. Time spent on /mu/ could be better spent doing anything, might as well use a few minutes for godawfully terribly boring music theory.

    Moving to a city soon, will find some music theory course maybe. Better at learning in class like atmospheres for whatever reason
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:38 No.21707271
    I know we're all trying to come to a scientific approach to music appreciation, which I commend.

    But the fact of the matter is that music, and all art, will always remain partly subjective. We can only aid ourselves in defense of false appreciation.

    So knowing music in composition terminology is all fine, but it doesn't lead to a fuller appreciation.

    People seem to forget that music theory isn't just notes on a scale and stuff. There's plenty of other thoughts such as harmelodics, and autophysiopsychic music which add very unpredictable traits to perceived music.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:39 No.21707284
    Answers like this sound like they're coming from kids who only know how to play a C chord and a G chord on guitar, not accomplished musicians.

    Not to be a snob...but if anybody else here is a jazz musician or an accomplished classical musician then their opinions would probably be more legitimate than this sort of oversimplification.

    For musicians such as these who can hear EVERYTHING that's going on in the music...that's totally different.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:39 No.21707285
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    >realize that there's nothing better in the world
    What about skydiving? Raising a child? Heroin?

    I know. All of these things require money which subsequently requires a job, something you likely don't have as you prefer to smoke that motivation sucking gypsy weed and play your bongos to Pumped Up Kicks all day long. Therefor you would know nothing of real joy.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:40 No.21707296

    not sure someone needs to know why a section sounds different (IE associating the music being played to theory terms and vocab) when they can just hear the change in real time and focus on how that section change the direction of the piece in a purely sonic and abstract way.

    The person experiences the same thing either way.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:40 No.21707297
    There needs to be a instrument board,/mu/ is a bunch of bitches who can't play a single instrument
    >> imafuckingtool 12/23/11(Fri)13:41 No.21707315
    >chastise someone for 'smoking gyspy weed'
    >why don't you try heroin?

    how to logic
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:41 No.21707321
    Simple answer: No.
    Moreover, I do hate when people who DO play instruments act like they're some type of musical authority.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:42 No.21707324
    Do you have to be a faggot to post on /mu/?
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:43 No.21707348
    Yesterday, I was listening to Led Zeppelin, and thinking about how fast John Bonham's foot is. I was like, "Damn, the dude has a fast fuckin foot."

    That's kind of like appreciation I guess?
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:43 No.21707350
    >I also hate people with science degrees acting as if they are some serious snobby scientists
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:44 No.21707362
    HAH... Motivation sucking gypsy weed? so you would advocate earning money to spend it on heroin before smoking weed?

    Also, I just graduated from a prestigious college (Music performance/Biochemistry double major) with a 3.91 GPA. I've already got a professional job and I play gigs on the side for extra money. How is that lazy? bongos...I play guitar, piano and bass. And no kicks...I wear boots bitch.

    Go back to /b/ where stereotyping is expected. You sound like a fucking neoconservative..."blah blah blah dirty pot-smoking hippies...blah blah"

    Also, if you think raising a child is as liberating as playing an instrumental solo...You're sadly mistaken. You have been turned upside on your head. Not to say that raising a child isn't rewarding, but it's also the most constricting thing you can ever do. They are opposites. You clearly aren't a musician.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:45 No.21707384
    >Moreover, I do hate when people who DO play instruments act like they're some type of musical authority.
    This, fuck. Mom used to be a concert pianist so met quite a few very much accomplished musicians and they never went on any bullshit about "fully appreciating music by knowing scales".

    It's like that always comes from small time musicians who just got into college or played a gig or two locally. Like damn
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:45 No.21707386

    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)13:46 No.21707410
    >lol scared?

    I won't get unbiased opinions if I post from this trip. I am a polarizing personality.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:47 No.21707428
         File1324666052.jpg-(2 KB, 117x126, 1323319268825s.jpg)
    2 KB
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:47 No.21707430
    They pretty much are though. And you wouldn't understand unless you were well-versed in music theory and knew how to play and instrument.

    This isn't meant to be exclusionary. I'm hoping you do put the time in to practice and to share in the joy that is being a musician. But it's simply a fact that musicians would understand and nonmusicians wouldn't. So don't get mad.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:48 No.21707438
    >Yesterday, I was listening to Led Zeppelin, and Bonzo was like fucking heavy artillery
    >> newnumberorder ♥♥♥ you're a ghost la la la la ♥♥♥ 12/23/11(Fri)13:48 No.21707448

    Heroin doesn't require money. Just a good mouth.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:49 No.21707458
    The key word is "fully," though...of course you can appreciate music, even be an avid music fan if you're not a musician. But musicians possess something else that allows for a heightened sense of appreciation.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:49 No.21707470
    Speaking of which, how'd those noise albums I recommended you go down?
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:49 No.21707474
    You must not have read the thread. You are wrong and I think this point has been properly settled.

    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:50 No.21707488
    Music paints beautiful images in my head.

    I also play the guitar and piano, but i play both since i was a very small child so I don't know of enjoying music any other way.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:51 No.21707498
    I'd say at least trying to learn to compose will take your appreciation to another level.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)13:51 No.21707513
    I flew home yesterday and it's hectic here so I haven't gotten through them all, but on the whole I was pleasantly surprised. Thank you.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:53 No.21707550
    Well those musicians you met also weren't provoked with the question that OP posed. And they weren't faced with all of these oversimplifications from halfwits who outright deny the idea that musicians can appreciate music more than nonmusicians simply because they feel left out.

    Music theory is not the same thing as "knowing scales." I'm talking about an understanding of all of the underpinnings of musical functions, many of which I have yet to grasp myself. (There's always room for improvement)

    Beginner musicians see scale practice as tedious and write off the study of music theory as tedious and useless as a result. They quit too early. Scale practice is the FIRST of MANY steps toward the sort of understanding which I'm talking about.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:54 No.21707577
    You don't need to know music theory to appreciate music, but anyone who says it can't help you further appreciate music is just clueless and bitter and make their claim on the basis of self-dignification and insecurity about their hobby.

    You can appreciate anything with a greater understanding, this is true for anything - ranging from art forms like oil painting to technological appreciation like programming and whatnot. To act like this isn't true is to embrace arrogance and ignore universal trends.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:56 No.21707608
    Yep. /thread
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)13:59 No.21707661
    Fucking this. Everyone go home.

    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)14:01 No.21707695
    Think I might start namefagging. Thoughts?
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)14:01 No.21707698
    Now why didn't everyone agree when I said the same thing?
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)14:03 No.21707748
    I don't stigmatize tripfags or namefags. I appreciate them because they help me to know immediately whether or not a given counsel is valuable.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)14:04 No.21707759
    Anon took what you originally did and made it marketable by cutting out the filler and dumbing it down. Welcome to the music industry.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)14:06 No.21707805
    Because you made an overly long, pretentious rambling bout of verbal masturbation out of that point.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)14:08 No.21707856
    But his post was a lot more detailed and compr-

    No wait, it has the same content with 400x as many words.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)14:09 No.21707866
    This word doesn't mean when you think it means.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)14:10 No.21707894
    1. Claiming or demanding a position of distinction or merit, especially when unjustified.
    2. Making or marked by an extravagant outward show; ostentatious. See Synonyms at showy.

    Nah, he used the word right
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)14:10 No.21707896

    you're so pretentious you're trying to give someone a lesson on what the word pretentious means
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)14:13 No.21707941
    Nah, I used it exactly right. You are trying to make yourself more important than you actually are and you are doing it even now.
    >> Patrician Council !NhfK9up1rg 12/23/11(Fri)14:16 No.21707985
    >You are trying to make yourself more important than you actually are
    [citation needed]
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)14:16 No.21707994
    I'd just like to thank everyone who contributed thread: I've read through it all and although I don't agree with all the arguments, it has been one of the most interesting and eloquent threads on /mu/ in a long time. Special thanks to the guy who was going on and on about how you practice a lot to become a good musician - I know this is the most obvious point ever but it has given me motivation to keep going with learning music theory and how to play my instrument so thank you.
    >> Anonymous 12/23/11(Fri)14:18 No.21708030

    Appreciate? No. Critique? Yeah.

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